What happens when dark, twisted beliefs turn into a sinister reality? Join us as we unravel the mysterious story of Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell in this chilling episode of Afterglow. We've got exclusive police interview audio with Lori's friends, Christina and Nicole, who share their accounts of Lori and Chad's ideologies, as well as the bizarre events that led to the children's disappearance.
Our exploration takes us deep into the unsettling world of Lori and Chad, where we examine their interactions with Lori's brother Alex and their conversations that went beyond the scope of their LDS faith. We also discuss the financial stress Lori faced and the potential criminal investigation that looms over them. Furthermore, we'll share a conversation between Emma DayBell, Chad's daughter, and a friend where she defends her father and Lori, claiming the missing kids are alive and safe, and that the rumors are blown out of proportion.
This episode will leave you questioning the truth behind these strange coincidences and the twisted logic that has taken hold of this family. As we continue to unveil the Idaho cult and the lives, lies, and diabolical crimes of Lori Vallow and Chad DayBell, we invite you to join us on this journey to uncover the darkness that lies beneath. Don't miss this episode as we delve into the hidden depths of this chilling story.
What happens when dark, twisted beliefs turn into a sinister reality? Join us as we unravel the mysterious story of Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell in this chilling episode of Afterglow. We've got exclusive police interview audio with Lori's friends, Christina and Nicole, who share their accounts of Lori and Chad's ideologies, as well as the bizarre events that led to the children's disappearance.
Our exploration takes us deep into the unsettling world of Lori and Chad, where we examine their interactions with Lori's brother Alex and their conversations that went beyond the scope of their LDS faith. We also discuss the financial stress Lori faced and the potential criminal investigation that looms over them. Furthermore, we'll share a conversation between Emma DayBell, Chad's daughter, and a friend where she defends her father and Lori, claiming the missing kids are alive and safe, and that the rumors are blown out of proportion.
This episode will leave you questioning the truth behind these strange coincidences and the twisted logic that has taken hold of this family. As we continue to unveil the Idaho cult and the lives, lies, and diabolical crimes of Lori Vallow and Chad DayBell, we invite you to join us on this journey to uncover the darkness that lies beneath. Don't miss this episode as we delve into the hidden depths of this chilling story.
Please note that this podcast contains information regarding sensitive events, including domestic violence, assault and abuse, as well as other triggering events such as murder. This podcast is intended for mature audiences. When Alice jumped down the rabbit hole, she immediately regretted her decision. A rabbit hole is a metaphor for something that transports someone into a troubling, surreal state or situation. Welcome to Afterglow, unveiling the Idaho Cult. This is Season 2, episode 17,. Christina and Nicole, This podcast will take you down the deepest of rabbit holes as it unfolds. This story is so compelling, so bizarre and so genius. It's impossible to look the other way. Chad DeBal and Lori Vallow were dedicated in the most horrible way to an ideology that should only be fiction. Instead, their ideology put them behind bars. Join us as we explore the lives, lies and diabolical crimes of Lori Vallow and Chad DeBal. I'm your host, kathy Brooks. Please follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Afterglow.
Speaker 1:This is Season 2, episode 17. We're going to dive into some more of what was going on behind the scenes that later unfolded, but keeping this in chronological order. How it was happening in real life. The detectives in Arizona decided to make a visit on April 15, 2020, to two of Lori's friends, christina and Nicole. So today's episode I have the body cam audio of that And it's pretty interesting. Remember, these ladies were part of the circle with Melanie Gibbs, alema, melanie P, lori and these ladies Okay, they were part of that circle involved in this casting out, completely aware that Lori was labeling people, including her husband, charles, at the time when he was alive, when they were doing this as a zombie.
Speaker 1:Before we get started listening to Christina and Nicole, this was posted around the same time, approximately April 2020, when people were looking for the kids and Lori and Chad were like what? We're not talking to anybody. Emma DeBell was in a conversation via text or instant messenger or something with someone and it was posted online. Emma says to this person the kid's situation is complicated, so I'm not supposed to say too much about it, but it really boils down to a super nasty custody dispute. Lori is protecting the kids from people that are actually monsters. Luckily, now that it is in court, we can address the lies head on. Anything we say or do outside of court gets twisted horribly, which is why we just stay quiet for now, but our side will be heard. She goes on to say so it is complicated and I hate how twisted things have become and how nasty people are, but eventually things should work out. Sorry about how long that was. Thanks for letting me vent a little, haha.
Speaker 1:So the other person replies oh my gosh, this puts it in a whole other perspective. So the kids are alive, despite all the rumors. I've been super involved in this case because you guys are basically my family and I've been doing my best to defend you guys. I'm just concerned about the recent deaths, the change to your mom's life insurance policy so soon before her death, and so much more. I've seen and heard so much and I have so many questions. I also don't understand why she doesn't just say the kids are safe and present them to the police, then move them somewhere else. Emma replies yeah, i'm not sure why they don't either. They've had five different attorneys. I'll advise them not to. So I trust there's a reason the kids are alive and safe.
Speaker 1:I really can't say more than that right now. It will come out in the courtroom. Just know the rumors are blown out of proportion that there are some horrible coincidences, such as my mom's life insurance and Lori's brother dying of an asthma attack during all of this. They really are just that horrible coincidences. Charles Vallow was killed because he was attacking them and Lori's brother shot in self-defense.
Speaker 1:Since we really haven't said anything to the media, it makes sense people jump to the worst conclusions, perpetuated by the other side. But we will share our side in more detail when the time is right. Interesting right. So Emma was being told that Alex died of an asthma attack and that the kids are alive, and these are just coincidences that her mother's life insurance was raised and Alex died of an asthma attack right around the same time. And five attorneys have told them you know, you, we are advising you to be quiet. This all just lies. I don't understand why she would be so gullible. But well, she is Okay, let's move on. Here is the interview when the police show up knocking on Christina's door asking questions Hello, hello.
Speaker 2:How's it going? Is Christina around? Well, sure, what's up. I'm Detective Bob with Channel PD. I'm just doing a follow up on a case, is it? It is, come on in, sir. We're just come on in. Okay, this is a mess and we're just kind of getting some cooking and stuff. But please come and sit down on my couch. Oh, that's fine. That's fine. Come on, doc. You bossing, how's it going? This is to be heard. I'll talk to the doctor now, no problem.
Speaker 3:So how do you know, Lori?
Speaker 2:Church, church. Okay, how long have you known her Spin?
Speaker 3:How many years?
Speaker 2:I'm okay, thank you, my job is over there somewhere.
Speaker 3:So we probably know, lori, for how many years has it been since? Probably seven years, seven years, yeah, okay, do you know Chad? Not at all, i don't know, i don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know, i don't know, i don't know. Chuck, I'm going to ん to met him up in Idaho. Okay, when's obviously before all this stuff happened. when was last time that you talked to Lori? June, june, what was that conversation like or about?
Speaker 3:I had gone to visit her. I was kind of concerned about some of the stuff that she was talking about saying and I just wanted her to visit there and look concerned about you Okay. And I reached out to her multiple times after that. She really didn't respond to me at all. So, like I heard about her husband's death and I left her a message and reached out for multiple times and then texted her a few times, she may have texted back twice, but if she did, it was very, very short.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:She really hasn't spoke to me since June Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you said you were concerned about her behavior was there, i guess. What brought that on.
Speaker 3:Well, actually it wasn't. So I had never met her brother, alex, until like a week, like a couple days before that, and I had gone to visit her and some ladies and he was there, and just the way that they were talking, i just felt it was not appropriate. Okay, she had gone to work for a religious discussion and had gotten into the realms of rude and that's not equal Rude and religious discussions, although maybe they're on the same side left of that.
Speaker 2:Okay, gotcha, did they ever get into the? any of the? I guess are you at, you guys, lds? Okay, did she ever get into the kind of extraordinary outside of?
Speaker 3:the LDS Okay, okay. Did you ever hear any?
Speaker 2:discussion between her and Alex, or I guess who were the other ladies.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:So no. So in that, i guess in the conversation that got that got rude was there okay, do you remember any of the context or anything that that made it weird for you?
Speaker 3:Well, lori felt like her husband wasn't her husband, like he wasn't, like he was possessed or something. Okay, did she say something to that night? Okay, she was going to say nothing, yeah, and so my brother was just kind of aggressive about it. Like what I took was like a little stressed out was the fact that he was casually like well, he just needs to die, kind of thing, and I'm like totally not appropriate. So after that happened I went back a day or two later.
Speaker 2:Was this at their house that she'd rented in here, or where'd you guys meet at? It was at her friend's house, okay.
Speaker 3:And so I just I was really upset by it. so I just called, i just tested and said Lori, i need to visit you because I think this is really inappropriate. And so I told her and I said you can't be casual stuff like that you can't.
Speaker 3:Like you can't, it's not okay to talk about that in that context. Like I don't know your brother, she's like, oh it's, you just know me. I'm super dramatic and so is he, and indeed I mean anything by it, and and so I just said, well, like if something were to happen to her, i was gonna, i want to go talk to the police. This is like you can't talk about that and like that's not okay.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And so I was totally. she said no, not at all, we're just, you know, being dramatic, and that was the end of it.
Speaker 2:Okay, when you had that follow-up conversation with her, was that over the phone or was?
Speaker 3:that in person? No, is it her brother's home in Queen Creek? Okay, so, like I never, and before that time, like I have never been to her house, and that was I've been to the big, big house off of Hickley.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:But I happened to in between house because she was really spragged in communication.
Speaker 2:Okay, how close were you guys prior to this?
Speaker 3:Like I didn't know her well at all before she moved to Hawaii. when we went to Hawaii So I had known her. She was in the primary at our ward and so was I, okay, the music singer and stuff like that, and then she moved out to Hawaii And we had a really great visit to Hawaii. So we went to Hawaii for a vacation just of our own families, and while she was there we went and left a surfboard that we had bought at Costco because it was cheaper than that.
Speaker 2:Okay, we gave it to them We just had a really nice visit Had an hour and a half day visit, whatever it was.
Speaker 3:It was a few hours in the afternoon and then we left and that was that.
Speaker 2:Was Charles there then? No, he was there. Okay, just traveling for work. Okay, is there anything else that you could think of? I guess, now, hindsight being what it is, and in all of these active investigations, okay, and then because my sister's been the word but the child a bow.
Speaker 3:I've been at harvest and I had no idea. She moved Idaho, no idea where. She was okay and Had heard that Chad gables wife had died, and so I, my sister, called me. She's like here with her, christina. My sister's name is Ruth. I just heard that Chad's wife died. You know, that guy introduced you to a church. I said, oh yeah, that's my family's friend, and So she told me about it. So I texted Lauren, tried to call her and I didn't say I just said I heard something.
Speaker 3:I want to visit the other chance call me. But she never responded never responded. So I had no idea She was even living there.
Speaker 2:Okay for that Did Mary down, or did you know her and Chad were friends prior to, or, i guess, by the time you're introduced? Okay, how did you know that through?
Speaker 3:the yeah, just in visiting with her She gave me a couple of his books. Okay, and so, and then my sister had brought it up on time that there was this guy about these books, they said, oh, i find, gave me his book, and so that's how okay, that connection. So then, when I met him in the summer, it was just like oh, my friend.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, but there wasn't a lot more conversation about Chad and Lori and their relationship prior to this or anything else like that. It was just a friend. Okay, just friends. Okay, gotcha, like I said, is there anything else? I guess now, looking back, that you go Oh man, that's really strange, or?
Speaker 3:She's lost, gonna come holler away. She has reached out a couple times and wanted to visit, and I haven't read the news articles. I could just kind of make some sick and I haven't even really wanted to. So when she asked if I wanted to get to get in visit. I just really don't like I don't want to talk about anything but you haven't talked to the police. And she said I've told the police every single thing I can think of Yeah, she's, she's.
Speaker 3:I've we've talked to her on several different occasions No, that's yeah, there's two melodies so Really none of those ladies that like we were getting together and just doing like scription, discussions and stuff, and did you guys have any mutual friends?
Speaker 2:besides? did you know who knows you Lima prior to this? Okay, so that was your first time basically going to Zulema, is that?
Speaker 3:One other time to Zulema's. I met her last March. So so it Melanie. And then Melanie, her niece. Okay and then my friend Nicole, who was also in the ward with me. So, like we knew, the three of us knew from her, her from here, and The day that I was upset about the whole thing and just kind of was done with it was when I met her brother, alex. There was a neighbor or somebody that had been invited and he was.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So that's the only other.
Speaker 2:Oh, and Serena sure okay, yeah, so that's it. So you know, serena and Nicole through church.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, serena was introduced to us by Lori, okay and. Serena still like. I communicate with Serena and Nicole's my best.
Speaker 2:Okay, they haven't okay. So You, nicole and Serena and then Lori kind of world, i guess acquaintances are your friends with them, but you've already became friends through church and that's kind of how. So that's. That's part of the reason that I'm here. I'm sure you might have. You haven't seen the news article. I don't need to, i'll stand this. This is, this is a That kind of clear lightning, dark scale rating and everything else and Like, yeah, they have, and like the past life that everybody's lived and the reason is completely Inconsistent with any of our churches beliefs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I hope you know that. I mean you know, Yeah, well, I'm very Yeah very, very aware of it being in the outside, but but your name, serena's name and Nicole's name, that those are the other two that are blocked off or all there. That became part of this, this Thing that they kind of have floating around, and that's how it came to be that we wanted to come out and talk to you. Yeah, it's just to see.
Speaker 3:I guess you know I want to see what did you say about Christina. Which one are you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do Yeah.
Speaker 3:The little nutty, his daughter. Oh, i got to be nicer to you. So the idea is that the only thing that I would add is that Nicole talked to Lori after last night, okay, and she told Lori that the whole thing that went down with Charles was that Charles had killed her And that the day that he died he had left his phone in their home and on the phone was this plan to kill Lori. And so that it was the fight broke out because Charles wanted his phone back and she wanted to keep the phone that showed that he was trying to commit murder and he needs help. And she told Nicole that Charles had cut her out of all the insurance and stuff, they were getting divorced and that she wasn't getting any money and she was left with all the bills from his job, like their home business and everything. So she doesn't really really got shaped by Nancy. That's what she was told.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So what was interesting at Christmas time is my sister, Ruth, because Chas and her ward, her husband, was in the Bishopric and he was like a clerk or something. So in visiting with him he had said oh, my wife got a lot of money from her husband's death and we have a house in Hawaii now, which didn't make any sense with what I'd heard, which is that she was stuck with all this death and that she never had a house in Hawaii. She was renting, so it wasn't even like she had a house then. So it wasn't making sense with what was said to.
Speaker 2:Gotcha Yeah So.
Speaker 3:It's a lie, obviously. It's a lie, obviously.
Speaker 2:A lot, yeah, absolutely, a lot, absolutely.
Speaker 3:There has to be with all this crap.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what you can think of that would be important for me in these cases and Unfortunately I'm out of business cards. But I'll give you my desk phone number Because some of them might pop into your mind. You know, a week from now or a month from now, you go. Oh man, i should tell Nathan this And I'll give that to you, just so you have my contact information.
Speaker 3:I don't know how it could. What transfer it Like? none of it makes sense to me, it just makes me sick. Yeah, it's all absolutely insane.
Speaker 2:That's a good way to put it. That's a very good way to put it.
Speaker 3:Do they know where the kids are?
Speaker 2:No, okay, no, i had lost track of hearing about it on the news.
Speaker 3:One way or the other. We knew Tylee and JJ JJ. Yeah, they were such sweet kids. It's wonderful people, and I'm sure you've heard that. I just haven't heard anything. No, Not yet So obviously it doesn't go well.
Speaker 2:No, no, all right, you guys, i appreciate it Okay.
Speaker 1:A lot of little tidbits in there for sure. Now the next interview is with the friend Nicole. They show up here and ask her questions too. It's best if you listen to this with headphones on, because the body cam footage is picking up the audio and they're not standing exactly close to each other, so you hear the detective much better than you hear the interview. But there's some interesting tidbits here that you'll hear. One of the things I found really interesting is when he's asking about Charles. Nicole says and you'll hear it that there was a time when Lori put some drugs and Charles is smoothie All right. So here we go.
Speaker 2:Today is Wednesday, april 15th, at 20, 20, at 1507 hours, detective Moffat at f***ing the police station And we speak in with Nicole Earl in regards to case number 19-83477. Okay, hi, hi, it's Nicole. Hi, Nicole, i'm Detective Mafo with Chalepedy. How are you? I'm good. I just wanted to touch base with you about Lori Vallow, okay. So if I come in or you want to talk out here whatever is more comfortable for you, alright. So how do you know Lori? Okay, i'm going to switch notepads here. How'd you meet her?
Speaker 3:I met her at church.
Speaker 2:Church. How long have you known her?
Speaker 3:I once say like 2008. Okay, josh, do you remember how long we've known each other? About two thousand years? No, because we weren't here then. Okay, wait, two thousand years. Yeah, i'd say she's just beard, okay. I remember the exact year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fine, and you met her church. Uh-huh, which ward.
Speaker 3:I don't know at the time. Lindsay, first, what do you want to say?
Speaker 2:Okay, and then you guys just kept in touch. Yeah, how often.
Speaker 3:We moved to Hawaii. Her family moved to Hawaii Like, oh, maybe a year or two after, okay, i don't remember.
Speaker 2:I should know they were gone for about three years.
Speaker 3:And then Josh ran into her at another church and said oh, they moved back. Gotcha And because we were friends with that and with our children.
Speaker 2:How often, i guess, prior to all the stuff that's happened. How, when, was what? was that text Just?
Speaker 3:said I'm free for your family.
Speaker 2:You said that to her. Yeah, okay, did she respond?
Speaker 3:at all. I had her sisters and her mom.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you knew her pretty well over the course of the 10 or 11 years. Did she respond to you at all? When's the last time you saw her in person?
Speaker 3:It was, I believe, very in July or April.
Speaker 2:So after Charles had died, Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 3:I saw her a couple of times after Charles died.
Speaker 2:What did she have to say about that And about Charles passing?
Speaker 3:She told me everything She believes it happened.
Speaker 2:What did she tell you happened?
Speaker 3:She said that Charles came in from out of town. I believe she said he was staying maybe at a hotel or something.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I was coming to pick up.
Speaker 2:JJ Okay To go to school.
Speaker 3:And I'm not going to go all the details, but she said that he came in, there was confrontation and a tidy came in with a softball bat or a baseball bat, but some sort of bat, and then she said that she had tidy, take JJ out to the car.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And buckle him in to the seat. And then that's when Charles took the bat and took the Alex Okay, and Alex fired himself defense.
Speaker 2:Did you know Alex? Okay, what was your Not well? How many times did you met him?
Speaker 3:I met him at a birthday party. That was the first time And that would have been last summer. No, not last summer, summer before.
Speaker 2:So summer of 18?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, Whenever his birthday was, it was a pool party, so that's why I'm thinking it was summer, okay.
Speaker 2:But, I don't remember exactly when it was Besides that birthday party, like you said, you knew her sisters and her parents and stuff. Did you had? had you had many interactions with Alex? Okay, when was the last time you saw Lori in person? I guess prior to Charles's death.
Speaker 3:I believe it was possibly June Okay. I know that she moved to Texas at some point in the springtime. Okay, Because it's so pretty in January which he left in Texas I believe it was Houston And then she went there, maybe.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then she went there for a little while and then came back When she came back from Houston, i believe. So Okay.
Speaker 3:I think I remember seeing, because he went to the special school of.
Speaker 2:Lauren, lauren Institute.
Speaker 3:Yeah, And she was having him in the summer program there, okay, and I remember. That was what I remember, because, whatever, the school was in Houston, it wasn't really the best fit. I remember her seeing Gotcha And he really seemed to do well at the Lauren Institute and like the staff and the teachers, and I remember there was some sort of purse altercation And I think it might have been during that time. Okay, so I don't remember what the details were.
Speaker 2:What the details were. Okay, so are you LDS? Obviously, you guys met through the church. Did you ever hear Lori, i guess, discuss things that were kind of outside of the LDS faith and have conversations with her about that stuff? Yeah, she did talk a little bit about these things. What do you know, i guess, what were the things that you heard? I guess, knowing now kind of where all of these criminal cases have gone? is there anything that stands out to you now as something like oh, that's strange, or that conversation was weird, or anything else like that?
Speaker 3:Well, folks, I think not anything.
Speaker 2:I guess, like I just left Christina's house and Christina had her over her conversations, that she's like there was just a really bizarre conversation that we had and it made me feel uncomfortable and it was kind of outside of really outside the normal of any normal conversation. you kind of over here, did you ever have those conversations with Lori and Yeah, she talked about her husband being possessed. Okay.
Speaker 3:And対 me as well, and one of the things it's gonna really make true to me was that you can easily get on people, people Whether they're doing the right thing or not in their life. You can just pick and choose Rob's kind of in this life together. It's my thoughts. The point is we need to keep on doing the right thing. So I didn't really like that And as she started talking about those things, I just tried to distance myself more in these conversations.
Speaker 2:Oh, i guess one of the reasons that you came to be here, i guess that we wanted to follow up and talk to you. I don't know if you've seen any of these emails and stuff, but this was kind of something that was found in an email between Chad and Laurie And it kind of goes through their previous lives and who everybody is, and obviously you were included on that. So it was just kind of you, christina and Serena were all included on that. So we're kind of following up with all of you guys just to see where everybody fits into the puzzle.
Speaker 3:And I think my name is Moon. I'm not ever seeing this document, So I do know a lot of these people. I know Jason now. He was in that same ward, but I don't know if he was actually there when Laurie I don't like he looked there when she was in the ward actually.
Speaker 2:Had you ever met Chad Debell? No, never met him. Had you ever heard or had any conversations with Laurie about Chad?
Speaker 3:She gave me his book series.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I guess there was a preparing a people conference here.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And Mesa maybe, or Gilbert, i'm not quite sure.
Speaker 2:Did you ever go to any of those? Go to any of them. So I don't know exactly what they're about. But when she came back from that conference then she gave me a set of the books. Gotcha, I'm not a fiction reader. I actually despise it. Okay.
Speaker 3:So I read a little bit of the first one and I was like, yeah, that's not for me Gotcha.
Speaker 2:Anyway, i haven't read any of them.
Speaker 3:Okay, i don't really know what they talk about other than that, very first book.
Speaker 2:Besides her basically giving the book and stuff, did you ever have any? did she ever talk to you about how, when she, they became friends or the relationship that they?
Speaker 3:She talked about. Well, she met him at that, preparing people from what I understand.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And I don't know if she was presenting that or if she just went to it. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Because I do know she went to another one and I already Okay, she did present there, but I don't know for sure.
Speaker 2:Okay. And, like I know, melanie Gibb does present those because she wrote some sort of book or something which I haven't read either, gotcha, because you don't like the fiction stuff.
Speaker 3:Not my kind of thing. So she met him and then I didn't really hear her say anything about him until probably March or maybe April. And then she started to talk about him, but she didn't necessarily talk about him, that they were having any sort of relationship. Okay, i think they were in communication with one another. He lives in Idaho and she lived here and she was in Texas at that time too. So that's all I know.
Speaker 3:She didn't ever go into any detail about I hope it's now like obviously there's a lot in the media, but I was never given any information about that. There was anything romantic going on or anything of that nature, so I can't speak about that.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, as far as I guess, is there anything that, with our investigations, that you ever heard that you think I should know, or like that we should discuss, type thing. You know what I'm saying? I know. Well, let me ask you this You are LDS. How often did you guys have conversations of the? I guess her beliefs, or the beliefs that she was calling kind of falling into that, were far up, over and above the LDS faith and the teachings in the LDS church, that's a good question.
Speaker 3:So are you LDS?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not Okay.
Speaker 3:Once she moved back from Hawaii, i met her. I ran into her. Josh said she was here, but she wasn't living nearby.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:And then I ran into her at the temple, which is over on On Higley Or Greenfield Yeah. Yeah, and so we visited and then, periodically, would go and go and do work at the temple. Okay, that's what we were doing, so we were discussing religious things, but it wasn't necessarily our left things that we're hearing about. She did, however, ask me to come, and she visited in March, i want to say, and she did visit about some of those things, and it just was not something that was pretty true to me, okay.
Speaker 3:And at that point that's when I Since myself, and it was easier because she was in Texas after that.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:So you know, there'd be some texting back and forth. but and then she moved back in June with JJ to go to school and she wanted to get together. We got together and once again she discussed some of those things and they just weren't really true to me. So at that point I really just thought I'm not interested in Like, i still like her as a person, but I'm not interested in getting involved in those kinds of things. and then in July I was out of town and Josh called me as I was driving home and said I just heard through the grapevine that Charles died. He didn't have any information so I didn't know what had happened. so I did reach out to her at that point and just sent her a message and said I am thinking about you, i hope everything is well, hopefully either the kids are okay, okay. And then a couple of these later she contacted me and I could look back and tell you the exact dates on the text.
Speaker 3:If you think there's anything in the context that I need to know where I should know as far as these investigations go, okay, And then she said that she wanted to get together and visit, and I was a little bit concerned about it because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't impeding any sort of police investigation or getting information that I shouldn't be privileged to hear or have, and so that was a couple of days after, and so we met and I just let her talk a couple of times and I really asked a lot of questions because I was just in shock. Really, i just was so surprising that things could escalate to that degree, and so that made me sad, because we've known Charles for 10 years. I know his sons, i know Tylee and JJ and No one tells as well as you did it.
Speaker 2:Did you ever see any side of Charles that would have been yelling and screaming, and the allegations that she basically, or the behaviors that she says Charles or how he acted at the time?
Speaker 3:I didn't ever see any of that, because most of the times I was seeing him we were in social settings. We would get together at their house or at church, and so I didn't ever see anything of that. She shared things with me, but obviously those are her words.
Speaker 2:So, previous to this, that she confided in you that Charles was verbally abusive or physically abusive or anything like that in the past?
Speaker 3:She didn't say anything about physically, but she mentioned he was a little hot tempered at times.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And he was an intense person. I think that's why he was such a good businessman, because he could just get in there and get things done and all. But yeah, i can't really speak to that because I never saw.
Speaker 2:Okay, Did you ever hear her or Alex or anybody talk about like what they If somebody were possessed, how they deal with the possession or anything like that back when this was going on? I know you might have seen a lot of media stuff since then, but at first hand did you ever hear her or Alex talk about? you know what to do when somebody is possessed.
Speaker 3:I can never hear Alex talk about anything like that, like I saw him. Social settings once again like little family gets together and then one, two other times. One time was the Serena. she had moved here from Connecticut in August. Okay, end of July, first of August.
Speaker 2:This past year, shortly after Charles died. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:She's moving to Queen Creek and so Lori said to have a text and said let's all get together at Costa Vita and have lunch. And when I write, alex was there. But I thought was rather strange because it was just eventually. These were together for lunch. So he was there but he didn't like really converge or talk much during the course of the lunch.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And if he was talking he was like you know, kind of groups of people chatting at the table, so I didn't really hear anything he was saying necessarily Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I need to ask you. Yeah, what's the good fun of Rickie to hold of you?
Speaker 3:Not really, that's a number.
Speaker 2:That's an easy number to remember.
Speaker 3:That's the best number for like no kindergarten or anything.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Anything else that you could think of. That's important. I guess now, knowing that we have all these criminal investigations going, that you overheard then that, like I said, you might have written it off, but you go, oh man, now that all this is happening, that's weird or bizarre.
Speaker 3:In June when we saw her after she went gone a couple of months. When I see me, christine and I, we got together with her.
Speaker 3:she had said that and, christine would be able to recall, i don't even take ibuprofen, so I have no understanding of medicine or anything about me, but there was some sort of. I think it was a medicine of some sort and I don't know if it was something Charles took or if it was something that maybe was another medication that JJ took. I know JJ took quite a bit of medicine for his different issues, but she had said that she had been putting whatever this was into, i think, a smoothie or some sort of drink for Charles when she was in Texas. Okay, i don't recall anything, maybe because, i just said, my brain doesn't really know any path of perichate, so I'm just not a medicine person, okay.
Speaker 2:Anything else you could think of?
Speaker 3:I've read stuff and it's just like all this is very, very surreal. I like to know somebody for a long time and then just to have everything, in a matter of a few months, turn upside down and like to know the kids.
Speaker 2:Had she ever? I guess, in the text messages that you guys had like after she moved, did you know she was moving to Idaho? Did she tell you that? I didn't know that, Okay.
Speaker 3:So I think that was in July or the first part of August, i think we were texting and the people that they'd run to the house from where the incident had happened I believe they were friends of Lauren and Charles and they were really unhappy with it obviously, and I don't know if it leaves some sort of record on the house for like cells later on. But she said that they were wanting her to leave and I said, well, just let us know. Like I have teenage boys, i said we can come and we can help you pack up your things and I get you settled someplace else if you need that kind of help. And she's like okay, i'll put you know. And she didn't ever say anything. So I was really surprised when all of a sudden, i saw a comedian in December and realized not long after all that she had left and had moved to Idaho and I wasn't aware that she was in Idaho.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. So any text conversations you had with her if there were any around that time she never said she was moving to Idaho or what she was doing. No, okay.
Speaker 3:No, the last I'd heard is she just said that people on the home told her she would need to move out and her niece, melanie, you know, had possibly said she could live there for the time. Like trying to figure out.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:Because I think, from what she had said in July, she was concerned about the money and like all the business debt and everything that talked about all the car loans and just not knowing how all this was going to work out. Okay, because she had said that Charles had changed all the and his sister I believe it would have been in March changed all the life insurance policies and all those things over to his sister at that point in time, which was understandable in my mind because he was pretty very much Lori and her and whatever else.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And his sister had come and helped to move to Texas So I knew that she was involved in trying to help Charles with JJ and getting settled.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 3:So that was something that she was saying, so I didn't know where she would end up.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:We were willing to go and like her moving truck or get into an apartment wherever she needed to land, knowing that I'm sure that that house was not an expensive to rent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, So obviously Because they know it's worth the treatment. That's the next clue in the past. You don't have any idea where the kids are, they aren't with you or anyone of their friends or mutual friends, or okay, yeah, and she hasn't. There hasn't been any responses, i guess, since the media has gotten a hold to this, that would shed any light on this case or these cases one way or another. Like a text message Yeah, i like text messages, or anything.
Speaker 3:I don't think I've received anything from her. I could go get my phone and look, but I don't believe. when I texted her in December, when I saw everything going on, i don't think she responded at that point. Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm going to run out of business cards, but I'm going to write my email address and my desk phone number down for you If something comes up, if you happen to something comes to mind of oh you know, i really should tell Nathan or to take them off of that. Just give me a call or shoot me an email. They have us working from home three days a week, so this is my one day off office work until this quarantine is done. I'm guessing that will be done by yeah, it might go into mid-May. My wife's an ER trauma nurse, a charge nurse, and they're seeing a decline but they're still seeing steady cases. So I think it all depends on what the governor wants to do or decides to do So in the case.
Speaker 3:are they really high risk pieces or is it just people having symptoms?
Speaker 2:that are mild flu. My personal opinion in talking to her and the way it's working. The scary part is there are people mid-30s that have no medical condition non-smokers, non, you know that are reacting bad to this and crashing. It's not many, but it's those rare cases that you go really as anybody safe, depending on how personally your body's going to react to it. A lot of people are coming in and go on. You know they have bronchitis symptoms and that kind of stuff and they're COVID positive and they're like well, i just don't feel good, i'm not getting better. Well, go home and you're quite affecting people and just stay home for until you're a better type thing.
Speaker 2:So it's really just kind of a bizarre mix of it's those one-offs and you never know if there is something underlying they could have had. I mean, i work homicide. I've done death investigations. We're 22-year-old kids fund at the park and just had an inaiortic dissection or something that was underlying medical conditions. So you don't know whether or not those people might have had an undiagnosed or untreated because they didn't see a physician.
Speaker 2:But it's those one-off cases that are kind of scary. You know, obviously, at the at-risk groups and stuff like that, or they're at-risk, you're more susceptible to get something like that. So I get that. But they are going down. I mean they have a tent set outside the CRH because that's where she works at for any type of complaints. If it's not emergent and doesn't need to happen right away, then they're being treated out there and if they don't need to be admitted, they just go home from there and quarantine.
Speaker 2:So I'm guessing I think because of the bad economy and stuff like that, they might rush to open it back on May 1, as we were set to do. But hopefully the governor's paying attention and if we need to stay closed, to stay down for two more weeks, we do, just because I think it really is. You know, if you're sitting here or going to the grocery store and you wash your hands and you know don't touch your face while you're in there and use hand sanitizer, you're not likely to get it. So if we get on the downhill curve of this, hopefully it slows it and we get all done with this.
Speaker 3:I think you're trying to wait through what the media is saying, like I was just at Michigan and it's a mess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Michigan's really bad.
Speaker 3:And it's just like both of those are terrible states to be in, right now, Yeah, and New York obviously is really really bad.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure that it's in Louisiana.
Speaker 3:Just wait for me. I'm like here's going to like put a bit of that off the mountain where you're going to Right. So I'm going to say well, thanks to your wife and you for being on the front line.
Speaker 2:Thank you, our stuff. I can't even imagine homicide That would be great for poor people that are willing to do that. There's my email address. I need to take that back only because stuff's been getting to the media and it's just making matters worse for all of us. So not that you would, but I just No. I can't. Any questions for me.
Speaker 3:Very careful People knew that I was comfortable and they just come to ask me and I just try not to share details because I don't want to create any extra sensationalism or anything, and so Any questions I can answer for you. Probably most of them you can't talk about. So Okay. I think the most like it was shocking in July, but what transpired by Christmas time? I didn't see it until Christmas Eve, yeah Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they're kind of the quiet victims all of this. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah.
Speaker 2:To intervene. I don't know exact. I know that she was. She did do that back in whenever it was. I don't remember I think it was. I think it was, yeah, february or so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Difference of the two. There's two very separate roads that they go down for those type of things.
Speaker 3:I was very hopeful that I just got to be free. That was all within the same year. I just can't believe that the shift can change or that I just kept thinking there has to be something in the possibility to happen, But shifts in some of my shoes be able to orchestrate all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Well, if you have any other questions, feel free to reach out to me okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, everyone, thank you so much for being here. There is also an opportunity now to join and just subscribe to the show. You can pay a monthly fee The link is in the show notes below and you can help support my show. I really appreciate it. Again, one woman show and I am doing it all, and I really could use the support to keep the show going. Another way, if you cannot donate to the show, leave a review. Leave me a five star review. Share this podcast, give it a good review, and that is as helpful as anything so it can get out there. I appreciate you all. Stay safe, stay well and I'll be back soon. Bye-bye.